Talk:Moors

Moor from Mauri

I frankly don't understand why this article is separated from the one for Mauri, since the word Moor is originally from Mauri, which was used by Romans, and by the native Mauri (inhabitants of the Kingdom of Mauretania and the Roman provinces that ensued from them) to designate themselves, indicating as Gabriel Camps suggests that it may be originally a Berber word that went into Greek then Latin. The claim of the first paragraph of the article that it was an "exonym" in that sense, is not accurate, and much less is the claim that it was an equivalent of Muslim. The term was and remained much more strongly associated with Northwest Africa and its proxy regions (e.g. Andalusia) than any other place, and a cursory search in the literature is sufficient indication, that it was mainly a geographical term that was sometimes abused and generalized, but most often retained its original significance (check the number of hits for "Moorish Morocco" vs "Moorish Egypt" or any other region, on Google Books or Google Scholar for instance). --Ideophagous (talk) 10:23, 03 April 2021 (UTC+2)

Unsourced Claim

"Castillian ambassadors attempting to convince Moorish Almohad king Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada to join their alliance (contemporary depiction from the Cantigas de Santa María)"

What is the source for this statement? What is the evidence that this individual is Moorish Almohad king Abu Hafs al-Murtada? Or is Moorish? Or even a Muslim? 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 11:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Those labels and others are probably based on this book Alfonso X and The Cantigas de Santa Maria: A Poetic Biography (1998): https://archive.org/details/alf_20231212/page/n27/mode/2up 41.222.179.226 (talk) 12:37, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

"probably"? What standard of referencing is that?

The page's actual and only caption reads:

"9. Abu Yusuf, the emir of Benimerines, is defeated in Morocco by Christian knights bearing the banner of Holy Mary. Cantigas de Santa Maria, 181. Escorial MS T.I.l."

So, not the Moorish Almohad King Abu Hafs al-Murtada?

In fact, the Benimerimes had overthrown the Almohads.

Wikipedia: "They emerged after the fall of the Almohad Empire" 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 13:57, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Evidently, I never went through the whole book, but skimmed through and saw that some illustrations do name certain figures/events and have a history behind them, that was my false assumption for others.

Here's an obscure website I managed to find, but it is polemic against "Afrocentrism" and not credible, it labels the image in question as 'King Umar al-Murtada, the Almohad ruler of Morocco, is persuaded to ally with Christians.' https://www.angelfire.com/md/8/moors.html However this link is completely unreliable in this case for obvious reasons.

Something to note is here on the The Oxford Cantigas de Santa Maria database search, 'Umar al-Murtada' is on the named persons, but it does not show in which codex rendition or poem the reference has him listed on. https://csm.mml.ox.ac.uk/index.php?p=poem_search

I came across this on Alamy as well, which has a label for that image, but this is a stock website.

https://www.alamy.com/a-portrait-of-moorish-almohad-king-abu-hafs-umar-al-murtada-from-the-cantigas-de-santa-mara-north-africa-and-southern-spain-were-united-politically-during-the-11th-13th-centuries-under-a-dynasty-of-berber-origins-the-almohad-empire-extending-from-the-atlantic-to-tripoli-in-present-day-libya-and-from-current-mauritania-in-the-south-to-the-walls-of-toledo-in-the-iberian-peninsula-to-the-north-the-largest-ever-european-african-empire-image417856384.html

Anyway, regardless, I noticed the picture has now been removed as contested for the time being. Maybe someone else can find a direct and clear academic source as we see for Abu Yusuf, the Emir of Benimerines. 41.222.177.181 (talk) 15:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

refer to my suggested edit bellow. I provided evidence from multiple sources that this is almohad sultan al-murtada AdamElMerini (talk) 01:38, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2024

Please bring back the image that was removed here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Moors&oldid=1254751943

This image was removed after an Afrocentrist YouTube channel spread the baseless claim that this photo doesn't depict Almohad Sultan but rather Visigothic or Levantine scholars in Spain. Their only argument was the fact that the poems don't mention him by name.

I will provide the historical context and evidence to prove that this is false and the person depicted is indeed Almohad sultan Al-Murtada.

Cantiga 181 of the Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X is titled "The Banner of the Virgin Defeats the Moors at Marrakesh".

source:

The text goes as follows:

The King of Marrakech was at war with another king.

The other king had crossed the Morabe River with a huge army and had laid siege to the city.

The king of Marrakech was advised to go out from the city with his best warriors to do battle. He was to take the banner of Holy Mary and to be accompanied by Christians carrying crosses.

The King followed this advice, and when the banner of Holy Mary was unfurled, the army of the other king was defeated. Many of his men were killed and they lost their tents and possessions.

others, seeing the banner and crosses, fled in great haste.

In this way, the Virgin helped her friends, even though they were of another faith.

The poem talks about the battle between the Almohads and Marinids that took place near Marrakesh in the year 1262. When the Marinid sultan Abu Yusuf attempted to invade Marrakesh which was still held by the last Almohad sultan Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada.

source: [1]

The historian Joseph F O'Callaghan talks about this event in his book. "Alfonso X and the Cantigas de Santa Maria: A Poetic Biography". In Chapter 7 "The Rise of the Benimerines" page 135 he says:

The invasion of the peninsula in mid-May 1275 by the Benimerines, a new Muslim dynasty from Morocco, dictated the urgency of the king’s movements. The Bani Marin or Marinids, whom the Castilians knew as the Benimerines, rose to power in Morocco on the ashes of the disintegrating Almohad empire. When Alfonso X sent his expedition to Salé in 1260, Abu Yusuf Ya‘qub b. ‘Abd al-Haqq (1258-1286), the emir of the Benimerines, was establishing his rule in that region and occupied Salé after the Castilians abandoned it.

CSM 169.53 described Abu Yusuf as lord of Salé—“o sennor de Cale.” His struggle to overthrow the Almohads extended over a period of years and was not completed until 1269.”

With some satisfaction CSM 181, without mentioning his name, relates the story of a major defeat that Abu Yusuf suffered when he besieged Marrakech—“na cidade de Marrocos que e mui grand’ e fremosa” (6)—at an unknown date, perhaps in 1262 or 1264.?” This richly

illuminated cantiga shows the encampment of the turbanned and bearded Benimerines, armed with shields, lances, and pennants (panel 1). Abu Yusuf’s opponent, presumably al-Murtada, the last of the Almohad caliphs (d. 1268), is depicted with turban and beard and sitting crosslegged as his counselors urge him to give battle, but first to order the Christians of the city to bring out the banner of the Virgin Mary and the crosses from the church:

E porend’ os de Marrocos al Rei tal conssello davan que saisse da cidade con béa gent’ esleuda

D’armas e que mantenente cono outro rei lidasse

e logo fora da vila a sina sacar mandasse

da Virgen Santa Mana, e que per ren non dultasse que os logo non vencesse, pois la ouvesse tenduda;

Demais, que sair fezesse dos crischdos o concello conas cruzes da eigreja (17-26).

In the panels (3-6) portraying the confrontation of the two armies, a body of mounted warriors dressed in mail and bowled helmets carries two crosses and a red banner showing the Virgin Mary seated on a gold throne with her Child in her lap.*® Clearly these are Christian soldiers in the service of the Almohad caliph. Filled with great fear when they saw the Christian symbols, the enemy fled in disorder, leaving their tents behind. “Many of that ugly and bearded people died there”—“‘e morreu _y muita gente dessa fea e barvuda’” (33). The poet concluded triumphantly that Mary helps her friends, even those of another faith, who appealed to her:

E assi Santa Maria ajudou a seus amigos,

pero que d’ outra lei eran, a britar seus éemigos

que, macar que eran muitos, nonos pregaron dous figos, e asst for ssa mercee de todos mui connoguda (40-43).

(text might have errors because it was copied from a pdf)

source:

As you can see. the panel does indeed depict Almohad sultan al-Murtada consulting his counselors including christian ones from Castille as the Merinids were shared enemies for both Almohads and Castille. Castille was allied with the Almohad sultan Al-Murtada. And this poem talks about how the christians convinced him to let the christian soldiers carry the banner of Holy Virgin Mary. Which according to Castillian was the reason the Almohad army defeated the Marinid army.

I hope the image is brought back as I have provided extensive evidence. And please be careful with Afrocentric vandalization of such articles. AdamElMerini (talk) 03:28, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. I also suggest you read this discussion M.Bitton (talk) 21:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I think a consensus was already established here. I also read the entire discussion and my edit answers all the questions mentioned there. AdamElMerini (talk) 01:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I do agree with AdamElMerini here, this image was removed way too quickly and before proper discussion. This is a contentious topic, and afrocentrists indeed try to change these pages. It seems there is much more evidence pointing to the fact that the man pictured is indeed al-Murtada LouisBStevenson (talk) 17:22, 19 November 2024 (UTC)